Late work policy help

Discussion in 'Middle School / Junior High' started by RSA1984, Jul 24, 2018.

  1. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Nov 22, 2018

    Kids don't need to "learn to meet deadlines" by using homework to do it. They have to get to school at a certain time. Most have other activities that are at a certain time. They have classwork that must be done at a certain time.

    It seems you mean that if someone isn't punished they will never learn.
     
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  2. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Getting to school at a certain time does not teach someone to meet deadlines... Please don’t take this the wrong way, but that doesn’t even make sense to think that that would make sense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  3. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Of course it makes sense. You have a certain time where you must have certain things done. That is a deadline. It just isn't a paperwork deadline or a studying deadline. I have a list of many things that must be done in the morning. So do kids. They have to get up, get dressed, personal hygiene, and eat. They also have to plan sufficient time to get to school or the bus. It is a time they have to meet which is a deadline. Some days they have more to do before going to school than others.

    How does that not make sense?
     
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  4. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I see what you mean now, but let’s agree to disagree on this one.
     
  5. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Nov 23, 2018

    You do know that prefacing something with "Please don't take this the wrong way" doesn't absolve you of calling someone stupid.

    Please tell me why work has to be homework to teach deadlines? Why can't class projects be used? Also, why do people have to be punished to learn?
     
  6. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I’m by no means calling you stupid. I actually think you are very intelligent so I apologize for my terseness.

    I don’t understand why do you think real-life consequences are out of the question. What is the purpose of education?

    Do you think governments subsidize public education in order to raise the next generation of engineers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, scientists, inventors, businessmen and women etc., etc., or just for enlightenment purposes?

    Education is there to prepare you for the workforce and so you can become a *responsible* and contributory member of society. An educated populace can make better, more informed decisions.

    I don’t think homework on its own is meant to teach students about deadlines, but it the best method of doing so, IMO.

    I normally don’t quote other people, BUT two persons from a teaching blogpost I found online can explain it much better than I can:

    “Can I hand in my quarter grades whenever I want? Can I be unprepared or "forget about" parent-teacher conferences? Can I complete my tax forms at my convenience? Can I use an expired coupon? Can I say, "I know that the sale was last week, but I had a lot on my mind"? Can I change my child's diapers when I get around to it, or does it need to be done when it is necessary?

    There are deadlines that are concrete in life and I believe that we are doing our students a great disservice if we give them the impression that there aren't.”

    Another poster said this:

    “We have to accept late work where I teach. This gets frustrating because this goes up until the last day for entering grades. The students have become so comfortable with this that they will wait until the last minute to submit work because they know that it will be accepted. This has only hurt the students rather than help them.”
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  7. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    Nov 23, 2018

    Initial reply to OP: I would consider what your core goal is with homework. If it's solely for students to show that they can follow your directions, then have a steep mark off for late or don't accept late work. If it's for meaning - such as your desire for them to engage in content or extra practice that would enrich their studies - then consider having a more lenient policy, while making sure that that policy is such that it maintains that meaning. For example, if your goal is to get them additional practice with an algorithm, perhaps allow late work until the test, at which point it's a 0.

    If you understand and can share with students the meaning behind your plan, then you'll get the most out of it, rather than just creating a random plan that meets arbitrary requirements.


    http://www.ascd.org/publications/ne.../num07/What-Is-the-Purpose-of-Education¢.aspx
    It's not as clear as you think.

    I think most would agree this is a part of it (but most likely won't agree that this is even close to all), but a late policy specifically won't significantly change this. Heck, granted I'm at elementary, but if I notice my students are working extremely hard, I'll move deadlines. My admin understands how busy we are, and while she expects to have most of the stuff on time, those things that won't cause a domino effect of sorts (i.e. our self-reflection at the beginning of the year), she's a bit more flexible, so long as we get it done as soon as we can.

    It goes back to the idea of reading and reading requirements: I'd rather students develop a long-term love of reading such that they're doing it all the time (connecting to HW: I'd rather they engage in additional practice/learning opportunities out of a desire to grow) rather than just doing it because it's an assignment (HW: rather than just doing it because it was given to them...no learning needing to happen ouside of that).
     
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  8. futuremathsprof

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    I can agree with a number of points you’ve raised here. With that said, the vast majority of deadlines should still be met. And *I’m* largely referencing the students who frequently don’t turn in their work by the due date. That’s unacceptable and they should be penalized for it. The students who show up to class prepared, ready to learn, and who turn in their completed assignments on time and to the instructor’s satisfaction should NOT receive the same grade as a student who turns it in weeks late and incomplete because they just “couldn’t find the time” or because they “had a lot on their plate.”

    Judges, for example, do not accept paperwork from either the prosecutorial team or defense team if it’s submitted even hours past the due date.

    The recent Floridian vote recount was rejected because it was submitted 2 minutes past the deadline.

    If you won the lottery and didn’t submit your winning ticket within 180 days, then it’s voided. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That’s life.

    It doesn’t help students if they learn that they have unlimited redos in life. It only hinders them. Sure, they may pass, but they end up being grade levels behind and not mastering material they would have otherwise had we held them to higher standards. This is akin to passing students along to the next grade even though they have straight D’s and/or F’s.
     
  9. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Nov 23, 2018

    You are right. It isn't like you can take the Praxis over and over until you pass. That would just be insane!
     
  10. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Exception again, not the rule. You need to stop looking for the exceptions to make your case and look at the numerous other examples I’ve put forth that counter that.

    Texas, now, thankfully only allows 5 attempts for their teacher certification tests and I hope other states will follow suit.

    Do you get a second chance to make a first impression? Do you get a second chance at a job interview if you come in unprepared and forget your talking points?
     
  11. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Because you say so? I can come up with a huge list of examples where people get multiple chances in many professions. In fact, many times they would rather things correct than done because many times quality is most important. While deadlines might be important, a boss will fire you quicker for meeting a deadline and providing crap than missing the deadline, especially talking to them first, and doing a good job.

    Sure, you can find a few things where deadlines are hard set, but even for them, most have ways to extend deadlines. Taxes? You can file a form giving you an extension. Sure, you still have to pay the taxes and might even have to pay additional, but you can file later. You can even pay with that form if you expect you will owe. So, you don't exactly have to meet the deadline with what was originally expected. Hmmm - late or incomplete homework do you say? Additional time. Did you know you can also re-file if you made a mistake? If it is in your favor you get a refund! Imagine. Not as black and white, is it?

    Court? Lawyers file for extensions all the time. It is actually commonplace, particularly in some types of law.

    No, you don't get a second chance for the first impression by definition. But the phrase implies that people can't see you differently, which is incorrect. And yes, sometimes you do get that second chance at an interview if there is a good reason or the company just needs your skill desperately. It doesn't always happen with low paying jobs where there is a glut int he market of people to hire, but it sure does the more specific your skills are.
     
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  12. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Nov 23, 2018

    Touché.

    Yes, you may get a “redo” for a highly specialized field, but would the common person? Most definitely not.

    I would argue that there are more concrete and stringent deadlines in life that are inflexible than flexible ones. Like in statistics, we look at the majority and what makes a representative sample, not exceptions.

    What woud you say to that?
     
  13. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    Nov 23, 2018

    I'd argue life is about flexibility rather than inflexibility, and that we could all come up with dozens of examples for both sides. Perhaps it's best to just recognize that they simply both exist in numerous cases.

    I could go into a discussion about basic retail jobs and mistakes not leading to immediate firing, but the point is, this becomes a pointless, circular "argument".
     
  14. TrademarkTer

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    Nov 23, 2018

    @futuremathsprof

    It sounds like your new boss may be the type to make you accept late work
     
  15. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I would begrudgingly do it, but I would not write any recommendation letters or refer students to be recipients of accolades as I always remember the students who work hard and those who do not. And should said student(s) ever ask for a favor of me, they will find I will be less inclined to give them one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  16. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    Nov 24, 2018

    Taking off marks for late work or not accepting late work in my view is discriminatory against certain groups of students. Some kids have everything going for them in their life (nice house, good clothes, parents that will drive their lunch to school if they forget it) and others don't have all that privilege. To penalize kids who already have 100 things they have to overcome every day makes access to education very inequitable.

    My primary goal is for my kids to learn. They may need to learn things through different avenues. Teaching things like submitting work on time is important but I can teach this without taking off late marks.

    And before anyone says 'oh but I allow kids with exceptional circumstances to hand things in late' I know there are kids in every one of our classes where we don't know the whole story AND requiring kids to share their story to get a 'pass' is another form of inequity. Kids shouldn't have to tell their life story to be treated fairly.
     
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  17. TrademarkTer

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    I can usually go along with most of the PC things and just nod my head, but this argument is a bit over the top. By this logic, giving these kids tests or quizzes would be discriminatory as well.

    My policy is simple: If a kid can get an A on my test without doing homework, then I will give them an automatic "A" average in the homework category because they clearly didn't need the practice to achieve success.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
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  18. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    Well where I teach we really don't use quizzes. We use conversations, observations and products - so tests are a small component of the products.

    But ultimately, our kids have to demonstrate standards I don't care how they demonstrate those standards.

    If they don't do well on a standard on a test but demonstrate that standard some other way, I use the other way to determine their grade.

    Ultimately, some of our kids are going to have advantages that others don't. That's just reality. What I am willing to do is try to decrease rather than increase the inequity through how I teach and assess.
     
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  19. futuremathsprof

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    I agree with this. I had a student who got 100% on my AP Calc BC final last year and came in to tutoring for several weeks in a row because he had a B and wanted to end with an A. I was very proud of him and gave him an A+ even though he occasionally turned in the homework. He demonstrated complete mastery and showed me he learned the material like he should.

    To Always Learning, taking off points for lateness is discriminatory?! Pfft, lol. Ridiculous.
     
  20. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    FMP, when I said your posts read to me as "I'm better than you" these "Pfft, lol. Ridiculous" comments are what I was talking about.

    I believe that taking off late marks is discriminatory. I know it makes people uncomfortable for that to be said. It is easy to just say its an insane perspective. You don't have to agree but it might be worth considering the perspective rather than dismissing it outright.
     
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