Ever had a sociopath for a student

Discussion in 'General Education' started by akconnel, Dec 11, 2018.

  1. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    This term is synonymous with sociopathy. I looked it up. Some psychologists prefer the former, but both are used and recognized in the field of psychology. Ta-may-toe, toe-mah-toe.
     
  2. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Your source says that Antisocial Personality Disorder cannot be given if the person is under 18. So, except for those students who turn 18 while in school cannot be called a sociopath because both terms are invalid for those under 18. Vickilynn DID NOT call it Antisocial Personality Disorder. Another poster did. So,Vickilynn is correct. You are using incorrect terminology even though you provided partial information to support your argument while leaving out the factual information about age from Psychology Today which says, "Antisocial Personality Disorder can only be diagnosed for individuals ages 18 years or older". So your interchangeable term of sociopath in terms of a person below 18 is incorrect.

    Remember, we are talking about school-aged people here, not generalizations. Vicki's posts specifically address school-aged children. So, in general terms for people above 18 the terms might be interchangeable, for terms of this discussion, it is incorrect unless you are trying to change the conversation to topics of people above 18 which is not what this thread is about.
     
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  3. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    From the Mayo Clinic website:

    “Adults with antisocial personality disorder typically show symptoms of conduct disorder before the age of 15.”

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...onality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20353928

    Psychology Today issued a new article and states that adults actually can be diagnosed with said condition.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cell-block/201810/corrections-psychiatry-antisocial-personality-disorder?amp
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  4. vickilyn

    vickilyn Guru

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    Prior to the age of 18, say age 15, it is a conduct disorder, not antisocial personality disorder. Re-read your link.
     
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  5. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I copied it verbatim from the Mayo link:

    “Adults with antisocial personality disorder typically show symptoms of conduct disorder before the age of 15. Signs and symptoms of conduct disorder include serious, persistent behavior problems, such as:

    • Aggression toward people and animals
    • Destruction of property
    • Deceitfulness
    • Theft
    • Serious violation of rules”
     
  6. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    It does not say prior. It says that adults with said disorder ALSO show a signs of conduct disorder. The word prior is not used here.
     
  7. vickilyn

    vickilyn Guru

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    The reason it states that adults with APD show symptoms of CD before the age of 15 is that whole "no diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder before the age of 18, when considered an adult." If you ever spend any time with the Child Study Team in your school, you will find what can and can't be used as a diagnosis prior to the age of 18. fmp, I am only sharing SPED terminology that is found in IEP's and with these student's social workers. I'm not sure the links you are going to are geared for the same concern. All I have ever wanted to do was share more correct terminology with those who are not in SPED. If you get a child that exhibits signs of any of the major conduct disorders, document like crazy, and get the CST involved sooner rather than later. Although the student may be exhibiting the same behavior at home, parents turn a blind eye because it means something is wrong with their child, until they can ignore it no more. I'm a parent - trust me on this one. The school, however, can and will test and investigate because other students and the ability to teach well are involved. You are a smart person - you are just not as well versed in SPED, IMHO.
     
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  8. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I totally agree with you and it is clear that you are definitely the resident expert here when it comes to SPED.

    I will take your advice and document like crazy. I think that is sound advice.

    If you look at it from my vantage point, I don’t have any other frame of reference because I only have the literature to go off of.
     
  9. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Delete. Double post.
     
  10. vickilyn

    vickilyn Guru

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    You are a teacher who will have SPED students of varying abilities, with varied problems over the years. As a teacher of record, you are supposed to go to the IEP and find out about things like modifications to help them be successful in the classroom. While checking out the modification page, you will frequently note the diagnosis, simply because no two IEPs ever seem to be written the same way. OD, or oppositional defiance, is one of the conduct disorders that I see frequently, but I have seen worse.

    Yes, the young child who seems almost like a "sociopath" has a conduct disorder that needs to be evaluated. My only concern is and has been that once the term sociopath is introduced into any school conversations between teachers, without using the accepted terminology, is that it creates a very negative image that muddies the water. All I am asking is to be professional, and if SPED isn't your thing, contact the CST and involve them as soon as possible. You are then doing a service for the rest of your students, the child in question, the family involved, and, perhaps most importantly, yourself. You shouldn't have to work with these undiagnosed students alone. You need support. Diagnosis helps to provide that.

    I work in a pretty restrictive school setting, and all of my students have a laundry list of disorders. Many of these often make the student susceptible to drug use, which adds another layer of dysfunction. Most of my students are residential, some with virtually no contact with family.. I make no excuses for what they have done, do, and may do again. But while in my care, I am careful not to create more trouble for them by using labels that can be even more hurtful than the original diagnosis. If we are careful not to make racist comments, let us be just as careful not to add derogatory labels that we aren't qualified to assign.
     
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  11. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    And your provided source said no Antisocial Behavior Disorder label prior to the age of 18. Your argument was that sociopath and ABD are synonymous so you can use sociopath because you like using fewer words. But you are wrong according to YOUR source. You can't use that word to describe people younger than 18.

    No one said signs and symptoms of an eventual diagnosis, but until the person is 18, that term is invalid.
     
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  12. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    To be fair, I think you *may* have been relying on an older, outdated article from a Psychology Today. I was relying on an article that was posted from a leading psychiatrist in October of 2018. I initially didn’t include any link, just the name of a source, not the exact location or specific research paper.

    Later on, I provided specifics with very recent research. In the beginning, I merely referenced Mayo Clinic and Psychology Today.

    Mayo Clinic was the one and another which said what I said about the names being interchangeable. I’m paraphrasing here, but they essentially asserted, “Antisocial Personality Disorder, somestimes called sociopathy, is a condition characterized by...” Psychology Today, for instance, went on to say that adults in prisons and elsewhere can be be diagnosed with said disorder, thus refuting your initial claim that persons below the age of 18 can only be diagnosed with it.

    Hopefully, that clarifies a few things.
     
  13. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    This is a very fair statement and very agreeable. I can’t argue with this.
     
  14. vickilyn

    vickilyn Guru

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    The key term that you have skated past is "adults in prisons, etc." At the age of 18 a person is considered an adult, which actually supports a2z's assertion that it is a label that is applied to those 18 and over. I have students who have criminal backgrounds for various things. As long as they are under 18, Antisocial Personality Disorder is never used - EVER. So the adults, over 18, in prison can certainly be diagnosed with APD when applicable,, but if we are talking about a 17 year old in juvenile detention centers, they can't be diagnosed with APD - you have to wade through the litany of conduct disorders to describe their disabilities.

    Just wanted you to know how this system really works. If interested in this line of thought, earning your SPED endorsement will certainly lead you down the road to becoming the resident expert. I don't claim to be an expert, only highly experienced with this type of student. Ask me about autism, and I defer to the teachers who work almost exclusively with those students.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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  15. a2z

    a2z Maven

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  16. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Where did I say that?

    I said they CAN NOT be diagnosed APD prior to 18 several times. Which means you can't use your synonymous term prior to 18.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  17. vickilyn

    vickilyn Guru

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  18. Unetheladyteacher

    Unetheladyteacher Rookie

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    Document, document, document! I refuse to label students, but I will take note of troubling behavior and pass the information on to the appropriate personnel. As an ESL teacher, I am rarely called upon to refer students to a review team, but I am asked to keep data to give to teachers for review team meetings. I like to make sure a misunderstanding of culture is never a factor in a student's diagnosis or behavior plan. That being said, in your case, I would refer to the appropriate authorities and keep records of your attempts. Keep referring until something is done or, as was said to a colleague about a former student of mine, refer until you realize nothing is happening in the review meetings any more because no one has found an effective strategy to help the student. In that case, go into whatever program your school uses -mine used School Tools- and leave a note for the upcoming teacher, so the new teacher knows to see you at some point during the first bit of the school year. Sometimes, you just have to keep administration informed and keep trying and trying with what feels like limited help.
     
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  19. Teacher234

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    I just go more towards what is politically correct.
    Fun Fact: I have a degree in psychology.
     
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  20. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I misread your post and concede that you did not say that. I thought you said can.
     

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